Cantor Rabbi Dr. Rob Jury, an experienced addictions counselor, discusses his life's work and provides guidance on addressing the complexities of Purim for people in recovery and a community at large in great distress.
About Our Guest:
Cantor Rabbi Rob Jury, PhD, BCC, CRADC, LCPC, NCC
Cantor Rabbi Dr. Jury is the Founder and Clinical Director of the Tikvah Center for Jewish Recovery & Healing, a state licensed and JCAHO accredited, Jewish addiction treatment program in Northbrook, Illinois. His Rabbinic ordination is from the Hebrew Seminary for the Deaf in Skokie, IL. Rob is also the senior rabbi at Congregation Anshe Tikvah. Rob serves on the faculty of The Family Institute of Northwestern University where he is the course lead for Research Methods in Counseling, in addition to teaching Assessment in Counseling, and Addiction Counseling. His article on Jewish metaphors in narrative practice with people resisting addiction can be found in the International Journal of Narrative Therapy & Community Work. He has a PhD in Counselor Education & Supervision, a Masters in Narrative Therapy and Community Work from the University of Melbourne, and an MA in Counseling from Northwestern University. Rob is a board certified chaplain with NAJC, where he currently serves as a member of the board and as Certification Chair. He is also a BCC member of the Association of Professional Chaplains. Rob is a member of the Chicago Board of Rabbis and the Cantors Assembly. Rob is a Licensed Clinical Professional Counselor in Illinois and a Certified Reciprocal Alcohol and Drug Counselor.
Cantor Jury's singing of "Hallelujah" at the end of this podcast is taken from a YouTube recording of his guest presentation to New Faith Apostolic Church in Chicago in 2017. Watch the whole video here.
Cantor Rabbi Jury makes reference to Beit T'shuvah in Los Angeles and to their founders Rabbi Mark Borovitz and Harriet Rossetto. For more information, click here.
Cantor Rabbi Jury discusses the labyrinth at his synagogue, Anshei Tikvah. Here is a video explaining this particular labyrinth.
Glossary of Hebrew words used in this podcast:
B'rachah (39:22): Blessing; specifically referring in this context to the liturgy recited before drinking a beverage: Baruch ata Adonai Eloheinu melekh ha-olam, shehakol nehiye bidvaro. Praised are You God, Sovereign of the universe, in Whose word everything comes into being.
Pikuah Nefesh (28:21): literally "saving a life;" referring here to the Jewish legal notion of prioritizing saving a life over religious rituals.
Purim Seudah (27:25): The festive meal traditionally held on Purim afternoon.
Shul (37:44): Synagogue; may refer to the physical building or to services taking place there.
Yahrzeit (38:14): Anniversary of death; surviving relatives often make a point to attend services in synagogue on a loved one's yahrzeit.
Zechut (22:32): Merit; as in having the merit, privilege or opportunity to fulfill a mitzvah, a sacred commandment.
NeshamaCast contributor Rabbi Katja Vehlow was ordained at the Jewish Theological Seminary and is currently in chaplain training at Moses Maimonides Medical Center in New York. Previously, she served as Associate Professor of Religious Studies at University of South Carolina. A native German speaker, she is planning a forthcoming German-language podcast on the weekly Torah portion with a focus on pastoral care.
Rabbi Ed Bernstein: Shalom and welcome to NeshamaCast, exploring Jewish spiritual care today, brought to you by Neshama, Association of Jewish Chaplains. I'm your host, Rabbi Ed Bernstein.
The Talmud teaches Mismishenichnas Adar marbin besimkha. Whoever enters the Hebrew month of Adar increases in joy. The broader meaning is that since the celebration of Purim occurs on the fourteenth day of the month of Adar, the rest of the month, from the first day onward, is imbued with joy and celebration. To discuss this a bit further, let me bring in NashamaCast contributor, Rabbi Katja Vehlow. Katja, welcome once again.
Rabbi Rabbi Katja Vehlow: Thank you so much. I'm so happy to be here today.
Rabbi Ed Bernstein: In the past I've always struggled, reconciling the revelry of Purim and Adar as a whole. with the never-ending suffering that we see around the world all the time. Katja, usually I justify celebrating Purim in my own mind with the notion that our tradition commands us to carve out times for joy. Precisely so that we're not paralyzed by the darkness of the world. And yet, Katja, this year seems particularly challenging. The terror attacks in Israel on October seventh, and the war in Gaza that has ensued since then, the pain, the devastation, the unfathomable loss among both Israelis and Palestinians. It all seems so overwhelming right now. And now we have Purim coming, you know. Purim fits kind of the stereotypical message of Jewish holidays: they tried to kill us. We won. Let's eat. And Purim takes it even further with drinking and merriment that go far beyond the seasonal joy of other holidays. And, Katja, I'm really struggling now with all of this. I'm wondering how the approach of Purim is affecting you this year.
Rabbi Katja Vehlow: Oh, II so agree. Purim has long been a holiday I wrestle with. You know, it's supposed to be this time of joy, of merriment, dressing up, sending gifts, charity. But it's been tough for me at least, since you know, 1994, when Baruch Goldstein, a Jewish American doctor, murdered 39 Muslims praying in the Cave of Machpela. I'm I'm a German American. I have deep, deep ties to Israel. So everything that we have lived through in the last four months hits very close to me.So this year, more than others. I don't really know how I can get through reading all these verses cursing the enemies of Israel. Purim is understood as holiday celebrating averted genocide. What does this mean this year, when we lived through what is for many of us the first direct experience with the massacre. And now, of course, this war with the terrible destruction in Gaza, all these deaths that has not brought us the release of the hostages, that has not brought us to a solution of peace and coexistence. Because how can one injustice justify another?
And we're chaplains. So for me, the idea of an eternal Haman who's out to kill us is very difficult as well.There are many aspects I find difficult with Purim, the way the women are portrayed, the way we celebrate it to day, and the rejoicing at mass murder as well. But I wonder what do you do with this?
Rabbi Ed Bernstein: First of all, I resonate with the anniversary of the 1994 massacre. I was in Israel that year, and since then I can't think about Purim without thinking about that horrible day. And you know, in quote unquote, normal years, just a personal revelation, I'm an introvert by nature, and so I thrive when there's structure, and I get more anxious when there's not structure, you know, unbridled revelry. So that aspect of Purim makes me more anxious, but I love the ritual aspects. I love the the reading of the Megillah in my in the synagogue that I'm a member at. I coordinate children reading parts of the Megillah, and I teach them the trope, and how to do that. I love that stuff, and even having a having a mishte, a festive meal. That's par for the course in terms of Jewish celebrations having a structured way to come together.. So in normal times I thrive on the ritual, and this year, the revelry is more uncomfortable. I must say it's just feeling all the more challenging just because all of everything going on in the world. And I'm struggling.
So to grapple so to help us grapple more deeply with the complexity of Purim. I'm pleased to introduce our guest for today, who, whenever I'm in his presence, he makes me smile Cantor Rabbi, Doctor Rob Drury is the founder and clinical director of the TikvahCenter for Jewish recovery and healing in Northbrook, Illinois, outside Chicago.
Rob is also the Senior Rabbi at congregation. Anchai Tikva. Rob is a board certified chaplain with NAJC. And A. PC. Association for professional Chaplains. Rob is a licensed clinical professional counsellor in Illinois, and a certified reciprocal alcohol and drug counselor beyond the alphabet soup of Titles and credentials Rob is an all around Mensch Cantor Rabbi, Doctor rob Jury! Welcome to NeshamaCast! It's such a pleasure to have you.
Rabbi Rob Jury: Shalom. Thank you. It's an honor and a pleasure to be with you both.
Rabbi Ed Bernstein: What should we call you by the way?
Rabbi Rob Jury: You should call me, Rob? It's much faster than the alphabet soup, so it's great to be with you.
Rabbi Ed Bernstein: We'll put in the show notes your bio with the full list of your many impressive credentials. As with other chaplain colleagues who have appeared on NeshamaCast, Rob, I’d like to start by asking you to take us back to a time before you earned a single degree. What was your spiritual life like growing up and what was the path that led you to Jewish spiritual leadership?
Rabbi Rob Jury: Thank you. II think that path began quite some time ago. I felt called to find a spiritual path of seeking since my Bar Mitzvah and I remember that, being a formative time of having this wonderful moment of Bar Mitzvah, and then really feeling Hashem, God, a higher power! Where? Where are you? And starting on a seeking journey? Then I think that brought me through the winding trails in order to get eventually to professional spiritual care, from exploring my love of davening and music in the cantorate to loving the study of text and Talmud, and going through Rabbinic school. It was there that a unit of CPE was required. And my first unit of CPE was an awakening as well, and said, Oh, here's more learning that I didn't know existed. That brought me through my journey even to today.
Rabbi Katja Vehlow: I wonder if you could tell us what brought you to Rabbinical school. And what did you make with this experience of CP?
Rabbi Rob Jury: Sure, I went to Rabbinical School in part to find a way to work as a Rabbi, and that required a rabbinical degree. My cantorial teacher of blessed memory, Rav Chazan Schlomo Schuster, who's the grandson of Zavel Kwartin and a golden Age Hazan said: it's wonderful to be a singer of souls…. and people prefer their spiritual leaders to be Rabbis. And so let's go back to to the Talmud and go that way. The cantor in me hurts at his piece, and the Rabbi in me loved the opportunity to study text, and during the time I was in Rabbinic School I emphasized a study of text as relating to healing, and it was there that I had my first encounter with alcohol and drug counselors And our pastoral care course. We had a single course in that was taught by an alcohol and drug counselor, and I began to head towards a journey of learning more about this. When I went to CPE and served as my residency, I planned to be a trauma chaplain that had been some of the work that I'd been most involved with were traumatic incidents, ERs, ICUs, even out in the field and in order to serve as a trauma chaplain as a resident, you needed to also work somewhere else in the hospital system. So I said, I don't know enough about addiction, and I thought I would go for 2 weeks to the addiction treatment program, and I stayed for 5 years, and it was a wonderful time, and I was with that particular treatment program until that hospital system closed it.
And as we were looking to close that treatment program, the medical director said, and what about the Jewish people? We're here in the Chicagoland area. There's no Jewish addiction treatment program here in the Midwest there's only Beit Tshuva LA. Chabad has one on both coasts. But we're really missing something here. And with her encouragement I continued my learning, and we opened the Tikvah Center for Jewish Recovery and Healing.
Rabbi Ed Bernstein: What was it specifically about counselling people with substance use disorders that you found compelling as you were doing your training? I mean, there are so many ways in which people can find specialties. How do you feel that that called to you?
Rabbi Rob Jury: When I went in for my first day to work as an addiction chaplain. I saw all of a sudden my favorite parts of spiritual care, prayer, meditation, wrestling with text, wrestling with theology. Those are normative things in the treatment of substance use disorders, non-substance related addiction disorders. And all of a sudden, my visits were little more than only interactions and contacts and social visits. They were healing visits engaged with the best of our spiritual care tools.
When I first arrived at the treatment program the chaplain space had been turned into a closet, and so we literally had to de-clutter the closet and create again some sacred space for that and that journey of connecting with souls towards healing and seeing that spiritual care can not only bring about spiritual healing, it can bring about psychological healing, and for many people even physical healing with substance use disorders. It's a disorder that attacks the mind and the body. and spiritual care allows us to see healing across that whole spectrum.
Rabbi Ed Bernstein: You spoke Rob, at the 2022 NAJC Conference about your work with people dealing with substance use disorders, and I remember you spoke about shifts in language of practitioners from talking about addictions and addicts to talking about substance use disorders. Could you spell that out for our listeners, and why that shift in language has occurred and is important.
Rabbi Rob Jury: We, as spiritual care providers know that language is important. Language matters. Language is how we make meaning, find meaning, construct our meaning. The language in addiction treatment has changed over the last 30 years significantly. First, they keep using this word addiction. Addiction is no longer considered a clinical term. It's a term that most people use who are not clinicians. The American Society of Addiction Medicine, ASAM,guides us in saying, and it's a useful term. Most people have some sense of understanding of what we're talking about when we say addiction.
The clinical term is now a use disorder, a substance use disorder, or doesn't roll quite off the tongue anymore, a non-substance related addiction disorder which people used to call process addictions. And it's a reminder of us that it's the use or the behaviors that have become disordered. That addiction is not a choice. When you meet someone who has alcoholism or an alcohol use disorder or has an addiction involving opioids or an opioid use disorder. They haven't made a choice to continue using drugs and alcohol. They now have a disease that is causing a compulsion to use. In the clinical world, we don't call people addicts and alcoholics any more, though there are step mutual support groups that still use those terms, in part, because people aren't a disease. And one of the ways that we help to recognize our healing is to say: you are not a disease you are more than any disease you might have, and this diagnosis we might use doesn't tell us who you are, who you were or who you will become. It's simply a shorthand used by clinicians to make our work among each other more efficient.
Rabbi Katja Vehlow: You've also spoken about Jewish metaphors in in the narrative practice with people resisting addiction. And I wonder if you could elaborate on that a little bit.
Rabbi Rob Jury: Absolutely. So we use at the Tikvah Center for Jewish Recovery and Healing, which is the only State licensed and joint commission accredited addiction, treatment, program offering outpatient intensive, outpatient or partial hospitalization addiction treatment services using a Jewish integrated approach in the Mid-West. There is something similar in LA. Where huge fans of Beit Tshuvah. I learned from Rabbi Marken and Harriet at Beit Tshuvah. Our approach, which we call midrash therapy integrates Jewish ways of knowing with psychological best practices. So what that creates for us is the use of Jewish metaphors in our healing. We want to be able to speak the way Jewish people speak across all denominations and backgrounds and spectrums. We want to be able to access the ways we make, meaning as Jewish people.
So I'll give you a quick example of that we heard at the opening of the podcast the impact of Israel and what it means right now to be a little over 4 months into the war. We use Israel both as a reality and a metaphor and addiction treatment as well. So we'll take a look at what does it mean when we identify with Israel as Yaakov, Jacob, the person. What does it mean that his name comes from this wrestling, wrestling with an angel wrestling with God, wrestling with himself in a theological way. And how can we understand that wrestling both is a spiritual practice, and as a spiritual practice that's potentially dangerous. He doesn't come out of that wrestling unharmed and yet he becomes Israel. And so it creates a little space for that. We sometimes think about Israel in that future forward way that promised land kind of way that not yet way that the Torah speaks about Israel. Right, spoiler, alert: you get to the end of the Torah, and we don't make it in and we get all the way there. We use that metaphor a lot when people have relapsed and we will say, this is like Israel in the Torah. The last word of the Torah is Israel. This relapse doesn't have you starting from the beginning with nothing. We roll back to the beginning of the Torah every year, and we haven't lost all of our knowing of the Torah, this moment of relapse, it invites us to think about what it is to roll back to the Torah and start again with all of the knowledge and wisdom we've gained, and continue with a known pursuit. We're trying to get to Israel, and we're gonna keep moving towards there even this time around in our recovery.
Rabbi Ed Bern stein: When someone is in recovery, when a Jewish person is in recovery, how does an experience in a place like the Tikvah Center compare to say AA, you know? In a more secular context. You've discussed the stories and the metaphors already. But can you elaborate a bit more on what someone experiences in a particularly Jewish setting as opposed to a other recovery settings.
Rabbi Rob Jury: The first thing I want to start with is the difference between treatment and mutual support. And this is something for those outside of the recovery world which is really crucial for us to understand, both as spiritual care providers, and as people who are in relationship with those in recovery. Mutual support is amazing. When you go to a twelve-step meeting, AA, NA, all the As. When you go to a 12 step, mutual recovery, mutual support group. You're sitting with other people who are trying to stop doing the a substance or the behavior that everyone in the room has agreed that's the one they don't want to do any more. Though there are frequently clinicians in the room, spiritual care providers in the room, rabbis, cantors, Jewish educators, Jewish chaplains in the room. No one is there in that role. We’re there at those times in the role of another traveler with a disease trying to stop that substance or that behavior treatments something a little different. Treatment involves professionals. It involves a clinical specialist. It involves psychologists and counselors and chaplains and spiritual care providers and social workers and case managers, and a whole clinical care team who have come together using best practices, evidence-based, empirically supported practices, using those practices in order to try to treat a particular disease.
You can put both of them together, and many treatment programs do and say, use treatment. Come in and use this expertise and continue to benefit from mutual support thosestep meetings, one of those 12 step meetings. It's why one of our goals is to see more of those meetings in Jewish spaces and I'm really excited to tell you that in the broader Jewish community here in Chicago, JCFS. Chicago addiction services has been working on that for a very long time. And we're thrilled to be in collaboration with them about expanding those spaces. When you come to Jewish treatment, that means a few exciting things. First, you may have been in a group before for group therapy or right Chaplains, CPE groups, and you've done that Jewish thing where we start to talk over one another, and they go: slow down. No crosstalk. This is not okay. You need to know the norms of the room. We frequently have people come to treatment here who have had those experiences in other programs and have found it difficult to be their authentic selves in the treatment they're already trying to still code switch or negotiate. How do I show up in the group. We know you're just speaking in a culturally appropriate manner. That's not an issue here, we’re able to do spiritual assessments across multiple denominations, across multiple ways of knowing, including the secular or chiluni, or cultural Jewish ways of knowing. We're able to then use Torah as the foundation of our treatment book. So I wrote a book coming out of my doctorate called Tora, Recovery and You and it is a primary treatment recovery book that takes you using 12 steps and psychological based treatment programs and combines it with sacred text, Torah, Talmud, Mishnah, sometimes from Hasidism, combining these texts as the center point for us to have the conversation. We know that for us that’s often how we engage in the conversation spiritually. We'll study something and argue about what it says, and that will make space for us to show up as our full authentic selves.
Rabbi Katja Vehlow: You mentioned working across the Jewish spectrum, which I find very exciting. Do you personally feel connected to a specific denomination or movement?
Rabbi Rob Jury: I feel connected to being Jewish. I grew up, Reform. My cantorial studies were in the Conservative Movement. I attended yeshiva in both Litvish and Hasidish yeshivot. I took Smicha in the United States from a non-denominational institution, and I've been as a seeker working in a multi-denominational context. Sometimes we call it post-denominal context. For over 30 years now, it's been a really exciting way. So II identify with each of the movements and none of the movements at the same time which have frequently been told, sounds like a spiritual care provider.
Rabbi Ed Bernstein: Can you talk about your Rabbinic training? Did didn't you study at the Institute the Jewish Institute for the Deaf is Skokie?
Rabbi Rob Jury: Okay, I took my Smicha from the Hebrew seminar for the deaf in Skokie. I sign, and we have interpreters here to be able to do that. And there were a few different things that drew me there. The first was the ability to study with all of these scholars across denominations. That particular seminary at the time would have scholars as they were concluding their careers from all of the different movements, including from Hasidish dynasties, come and teach courses. So my Hebrew teacher was Rabbi, Doctor Bernard Grossfeld, of blessed memory, who had been the head of the Hebrew Department at a university, and ordained from Moshe Feinstein, and then you would go and take a class in Zohar with Rav Chaim Drizzle, , who translates Zohar on the Habad's kabala.com website. So you had this really broad spectrum of folks, which was very exciting for me, and I was also drawn to this idea of healing the focus there was to look at healing text specifically, and that that was very attractive to me. Rabbi, Dr. Goldhammer of blessed memory that had been a large part of his rabbinate was focusing on healing.
Rabbi Ed Bernstein: I was intrigued when I went on your shul’s (synagogoue) website and I saw the labyrinththat you have on the floor. Can you talk about a labyrinth as part of centering a spiritual community, and the kinds of spiritual exercises you utilize in that?
Rabbi Job Jury: Labyrinths are amazing meditation tools. I was, had the zchut (merit) to present at the Parliament of World religions on an interfaith panel on labyrinths this summer and we were able to look at the Pardes Rimonim. The Pradesh Ramon is a Kabbalistic text that uses this very specific Hebrew letter labyrinth as well as looking at labyrinths that appear in Jewish meditations, in Jewish manuscripts. Let's just take a moment in case you haven't encountered the labyrinth. The labyrinth is a walking meditation. It is unicursal. There's one path in and the same path out. It can look like a maze. But you won't get lost in labyrinth. You either end up in the center or right back in the beginning and we use a labyrinth here at the Tikvah Center in relationship to the Aron haKodesh. And so we have the labyrinth on the floor, and it is a seed of life labyrinth. We have an aron haKodesh as well. That's a tree of life, and it provides us back and forth of being able to walk in meditation and then come back to Torah and everything that we're doing.
Our labyrinth protocols also are used for people for whom we're treating for trauma. So we're on a very busy street here in the suburbs of Chicago, and after your trauma therapy we don't tell you: Go get in your car and drive out into that very busy street. We actually say, take a moment to walk the labyrinth as a tool of integration, of recentering.
It's a very powerful tool.
Rabbi Ed Bernstein: It's great to have that in a Jewish space.
Rabbi Katja Vehlow: You're doing this holy and important healing work. And you mentioned just now how you're recommending that people take a moment before they sort of re enter the daily life. And I wonder what you yourself do for yourself, for your Neshama, your soul, as you do this work, that as holy as it is, I am sure, is all so often difficult.
Rabbi Rob Jury: Yes, I think there is a number of practices that are really crucial. The first is to understand our regular prayer practice. So if you're a Daily Davener to continue those practices, and then to incorporate additional recovery practices with them. For some folks who have never had the experience of davening, or even davening on a daily basis. Sometimes they'll add davening as part of it. for me, I use a meditation book every day. One of our step recovery books that we do there. There's a few different ones where Rabbi Twerski has one, Rabbi Horwitz it has one. there are a number of just really great books to use for that. I walk a labyrinth every single day. Here we have 2, one inside and one outside. It snows here in the suburbs of Chicago. So we're using the inside one not this year so much. It's pretty mild. It's been a mild winter. We've been grateful for that which is great. II also use some other artistic therapies including mandalas, and then music, and we'll do chanting. We'll do just singing together, all the spiritual ways to center myself in the work.
I'll also say, this is important for all spiritual care providers, I would say, everybody, I have a Rabbi and I will reach out to my rabbi, and when I need to speak to my therapist I'll call my therapist, too, that as clinical providers we also need clinical teams around us both spiritually as well as in mental health.
Rabbi Ed Bernstein: Rob, at the start of the show we were talking about Purim, andI want to get into that topic of Purim, particularly as it relates to people with substance use disorders, you know, in the Talmud there's a passage that says one should drinkso much on Purim ad de lo yada arurham vebarach Mordechai. One should drink so much until you don't know the difference between cursed be Haman, and blessed be Mordechai! That's in tractate Megillah. In many synagogues the flow of alcohol on Purim is a prominent feature of the holiday and I imagine this has got to be a complicated time for Jews in recovery, and you had a congregation in which many congregants are in recovery. So what is Purim like in your community? And are there things the broader Jewish community should be doing differently around Purim to show greater sensitivity to the recovery community.
Rabbi Rob Jury: I want to start with greater sensitivity to the recovery community.
When we advocate for sober spaces for Purim, we'll sometimes hear that very same quote from Megillah, quoted back to us and say, but you know, ad lo yada, you gotta go and drink until you don't know the difference between Haman and Mordecai. What can you do it? It's in the Shas, it's in the Talmud. I'll often invite people to look at the very next verse that comes after them and it tells the story of Raba and Rabi Zara and Rob and Rabi Zara right after we're told drink until you don't know the difference until Haman and Mordecai have a Purim seudah together. They have a Purim seudah, and they get drunk in their drunkenness. Rabbah gets up, and it says. slaughters Rabi Zara.
The next day, though Raba, having the miraculous power of Chazal, brings him back, revives him, reanimates him, and then Raba says, Hey, let's do it again. It's the seger at Shushampuram. Let's go. And Ravizara says, ho! Miracles don't happen all the time and they don't drink that way on the second part. So the first thing I want people to remember is in the same passage we look to say you have to drink until you don't know the difference between Haman and Mordechai, the very next story is the danger of doing that. The very next story is, not only is it dangerous, it can cause you to murder someone, it can cause you to slaughter someone.
And so the first thing we need to do today is, consider Pikuach nefesh unless you have the miraculous reviving power of Ghazal, and you can bring everybody back. We need to start with Pikuach nefesh in our spaces. How do we make a safe space? Maybe we make a safe space like that by looking at the Shulchan Arukh, and the scholar says, Look you, you don't have to get so drunk.
In fact, the Shulchan Arukh says you can drink just a little more than you used to, and then go to sleep. And that's okay. And so the first thing we might do is called harm reduction. If you're a person whose recovery involves harm reduction. Harm reduction is this idea in recovery, where we use less of a substance making it a little less dangerous to do it.
So if your if your recovery isn't about abstinence, if it's about harm, reduction. Purim shouldn't be the opportunity to say, and they don't need to follow my treatment plan. I'm gonna be a observant Jewish person in this way, and the treatment plan isn't the useful piece. Follow your treatment plan. Use the Shulkan Arukh's invitation of harm reduction and go to sleep. That's a really beautiful way to introduce harm reduction. It goes on a little bit more, though, because we're not the first to be bothered by these challenges. If we think back to the text, I think it was the Be’er Halakha which says that we also need to remember this idea of drunkenness though meant as a Mitzvah isn't meant that you have to become intoxicated. It doesn't actually say: drink until you're intoxicated. It says, till you don't know the difference between something, Haman and Mordecai, good and evil. It does not require you to be intoxicated. I'll give you one last one and then I'll tell you what we do over here at the Center and then my favorite part is from the Hai Adam and the Hai Adam comments on this and the Hai Adam says, You know these are all really great, and if it's dangerous for you, if it's going to cause you to commit another transgression, to engage in ad lo yada, it's better to not.
We have multiple multiple places in our tradition that tell us quorum does not have to be a time to relapse. Now I say that coming off of these 4 months of the war, where we have seen a significant number of people relapsing out of the stress of the war, out of the worry about family, out of the loss of friends and family, out of the worry of people who've been called up, of the worry about those who are still in captivity. We already know we're in a more vulnerable time than many other Purims in our life. and so we want to be really safe and careful with them.
I'll tell you what we do. At the center we have a sober seudah and a sober Megillah reading. We look at the Megillah reading as a story of recovery. First protagonist there has problem drinking such a problem, drinking that he is swayed, not by his own thinking, but by the others. His idea to go and debase his wife, his idea to go and try and throw her out isn't his own idea.
Rabbi Ed Bernstein: You're talking about the King Achashverosh.
Rabbi Rob Juri: Yes, yes. So Achashverosh calls them. Vashti says, dance in these lewd ways not because that occurs to Achashverosh that occurs to people around him and Achasheverosh,, what do we know about him before he does that? He's intoxicated when it's time to expel her. That doesn't occur to him, either. He doesn't say, Oh, how could you do this? Let's get you out of here. Other people go to him and say, You know, this is not okay, it's in his intoxication. It's in his active use that he makes these actions.
We can look when Esther comes on the scene. And suddenly, other than the miraculous seuda in which were saved at the end, most of their encounters don't involve intoxicants. and so here we start to see him coming into a more sober place. So we do a sober magillah reading. You can still have a great amount of fun you can use in some people's recovery non-alcoholic beverages, as we like to remind people who do shots and beer, and the holiday, and do all this drinking, that most of the time, other than yayin, and other than the wine. Most of the time the bracha has the same. Whether you're drinking water or whether you're drinking a mocktail, whether you're drinking some other proof beverage.
Rabbi Katja Vehlow: We spoke at the beginning of four podcast about our own personal difficulties with Purim this year regarding the massacres, the terrible war that's raging with no end in sight. And I wonder if you could help us a little bit and tell us what you do with this complexity?
Rabbi Rob Jury: This year especially, is calling us into account in both a need to find a way to observe Purim defined as Reb Twerrski z”l would say that our baseline in Judaism is joy. Sometimes we increase it, and sometimes we decrease it and our baseline is joy. And so in this time of incredible sadness and incredible worry and an incredible anxiety, to have some access to joy can be very helpful. can be therapeutic. It can be healing to be able to say, we're going to have Purim.
And yes, we're going to dress up, and yes, we're going to have a seudah. At the same time., we’re in the midst of the trauma. The war is still ongoing. The hostages have not been returned, may they be returned speedily? It is my ardent prayer by the time this podcast goes live, every one has been returned home. And today, at the time of our conversation that hasn't happened yet, and to make space for both of those. In some ways our discussion about alcohol invites us to make space for both of those. We wonder why. Suddenly ad lo yodea, elsewhere in Tanach you'll find all of these verses that will tell you beware of the stumbling block of alcohol. Watch out for drinking wine. Wine is a symbol of mourning and of sadness everywhere but here.Here, it's a symbol of joy. It reminds us in this moment to seek out Hester Panim, the hidden face of God.
For many of us who are struggling in these times having those theological challenges, having those emotional challenges of how can this be? The world in which we're in right now? How do we connect with a higher power, something bigger than ourselves. We're reminded in the Megillah that Hashem's name doesn't appear at all. It's hidden from us. These are the moments that call us to account to spiritual care providers to lean into the seeking poem can remind us, it's okay to be seeking. Purim can remind us that it's okay to look around and say, I don't see where this presence is most manifest. How do I find it? II need to keep looking. Purim can remind us that journey of seeking is in itself a practice. .and so I would invite us to lean into the seeking and to make space for the trauma of this moment. This trauma has not yet passed. We're still in the middle of it, and to be gentle with ourselves in those ways,g entle with our expectations, that we'll be able to engage in it as if it has passed. And now we're able to move beyond something that's ongoing.
Rabbi Ed Bernstein: In American culture in particular, we have kind of an ingrained into our culture, the need to find hope. And I think what you're saying is that Purim is to embrace the process, and maybe hope will come just by being in the process.
Rabbi Rob Jury: I like where you're going. With that I'm yeah. I'm reminded of the word Tikva, not only from our center, but this idea of hope and that if you look at the shoresh, the root of hope from the two-letter versus the three-letter shoresh, which is its whole own spiritual thing. You'll find that that letter. This idea of something that can hold, something that can thread, something that we can grab on to. And so may this tikvah, may this desire for hope! We remind us in the Hester Panim that it's already here We don't need it to come simply need to pick up what's there? It's it's Hester from us. It's hidden.
And this is the time for us to find what's here and present already.
Rabbi Ed Bernstein: Whhen we read about Esther, who is the heroine of the story, who whose name embodies hiddenness. Purim is an invitation for us to seek. There's hide, and there's seek. I want to return to the theme of honoring members of the Jewish community who are in recovery. Congregations that are out there where there’s a Kiddush club, and they’re pouring schnapss during the Haftorah or are doing whatever during the megillah. Do you have any advice for those congregations? Knowing, as you do, that there are people in our community with recovery, should your average congregation out there be doing things differently to show greater sensitivity to people?
Rabbi Rob Jury: Absolutely. So I'm going to start by sharing a painful story from a couple of weeks ago we had someone show up at the shul. The Center was closed and they were coming, and the shul has many denominations and were a known sober place on Shabbat you can go to. And this person showed up, and I knew that they go somewhere else, and I asked them, What are you doing here? So nice to see you, Shabbat Shalom and tell me like, what brought you in on this day, and they began to weep, as they told me about relapsing and shul and that they had been not going to shul for a while, and they had a yahrzeit, and they really wanted to go, and there was a Kiddush club going on, and they thought it'll be safe enough, because it's shul, and by being in shul it will protect me. And they left from there, and they had a full-blown relapse. And so I first thing I want people to know is, the danger is real.
Pikuach Nefesh is what guides us in this moment. People really do come to our sacred spaces and relapse when we have the alcohol just out doesn't mean you can't have a Kiddish club. It doesn't mean you can't have wine right? I'm on a sober campus, so we never have any alcohol here. Just Naloxone. It does mean, though, that we need to be aware of having the alternatives widely available and not on the same table. I've seen some Kittish clubs saying, Oh, well, I'm putting a bottle of grape juice next to all the bottles of alcohol in, so you'll pick up the one that's right for you. That is incredibly dangerous for someone. And so instead, I was recently up in Madison and was working with some shuls on this, and theirKiddish Club has started by instituting Kiddish Club, first at a sober table
with all the singing and the starting happening at the sober table, and the brakhos s are the same. So you're making it over juices and other special pieces. And then, after that's begun, those who want to transition to a different table in another part of the room, with alcohol will then go over. But the rabbi and everyone, they're starting at the sober table and including every one there. So I'd encourage folks to consider that.
Rabbi Ed Bernstein: That's a great statement of inclusion. Rob, as we near our conclusion, do you have any additional messages you wish to add about Purim this year, or lessons from the recovery world, on managing challenging times, or anything else on your mind?
Rabbi Rob Jury: first for our spiritual care providers, our chaplains, our rabbis, our cantors, those who are professional spiritual care providers. If you are struggling with a substance or a process, help is possible. Recovery is possible.
We frequently overlook all of the providers for secondary traumas, for primary traumas, who are suffering, and particularly our Jewish spiritual care providers who are suffering along with those who are suffering right now. If Purim needs to be your rock bottom, your wake up, call your opportunity for recovery, let this be the moment. If you've been waiting for some sign to come to you, let it be this podcast right now, saying, recovery is possible for you. In our work with those who care about people in recovery, we often are encouraging folks to go to a Purim celebration. Go to the seuda, come to the Magill reading. It's a Mitzvah. We've got to do it, and I want us to ask ourselves, are we inviting some one to a place that's safe for them before we use our pastoral authority, our authority as spiritual care providers have we ensured the safety of the environment we're going. So if you're a megillah reader, go read a megillah in a sober place, so those for whom it's dangerous to be around alcohol can go to that place.
If you're looking to cut back a little bit, let this be the Purim where everything's upside down, and you drink a little less, or smoke a little less, or use a little less. May we in the end find Purima story of recovery.
Rabbi Ed Bernstein: Amen. Canter Rabbi, Doctor Rob Jury. Thank you so much for joining us on NeshamaCast. May you be blessed with good health and strength and courage, and continue to do your sacred work.
Rabbi Rob Jury: Amen. Thank you for you and for you all, and for us together. And now it's been a real pleasure and an honor. Chag Purim sameach.
Rabbi Ed Bernstein: Chag Purim sameach. NeshamaCast is a production of Neshama, Assocation of Jewish Chaplains. Thank you to our guest, Cantor Doctor Rabbi Rob Jury. Special thanks for Rabbi Katja Vehlow, for participating in today’s interview and for her technical and logistical support, along with Allison Atterbury, NAJC acting executive director, and Rabbi Drew Kaplan and the NAJC Social Media Committee.
Transcripts for this episode and other episodes off NeshamaCast are available at Neshamcast.simplecast.com. Our theme music is a niggun for Ki anu amekha, written and performed by Reb Cantor Lisa Levine. Please help others find this show by rating and reviewing the show on Apple Podcast. We welcome reactions and suggestions for future programing at NeshamaCast@gmail.com. And be sure to follow NAJC on Facebook and to learn more about spiritual care happening in our communities.